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JAF Admin
15-11-2013, 11:23 CET
Super Administrator
Total Posts: 757
Update 36: Character Development
Dear Backers,
Today we have a real treat for you, it’s our first Developer Diary. We have been focusing a lot on characters in the game as well as body types, so enjoy the detailed video on that below. We have had a few issues with synchronizing the audio in some places, but we decided to go ahead anyway as we know you want news news news :)
For those who want to explore the pictures used in the video further we've added most of the concepts below:
A screenshot of the latest lineup:
Forum
Our new forum is up and running and we’re looking to improve it along the way where possible. e.g. showing more latest post and dividing them into general and behind the scenes as well as also adding a notification system. We just got the slacker backer shopup and running where you’re able to buy a digital copy, a physical copy and a collector’s edition of the game. Humble bundle takes care of the digital, while we’ll handle the physical ourselves. We’ve decided not to allow any add-ons as it’s too much manual administration on our end.
We’ve been getting a lot of feedback and suggestions, which is great as inspiration to improve the game, keep it coming. We may not reply to every single post, but we read everything. Sometimes it’s also too early for us to give anymore than a general comment on a question as the topic raised hasn’t been fully discussed within the team yet. Jagged Alliance is a fairly complex game with many subsystems, making it harder to make fast decisions, hence a general question to e.g. the tactical layer can actually be tricky to reply to.
What's Next?
We’re currently taking a closer look at the cover and Line of Sight (LoS) system, as well as discussing what the stat system should look like. We’ll be releasing more on that on the forums within the next few weeks and covering certain elements in detail in the next update.
Kickstarter Love
We wanted to share some love for two other projects that are currently live on Kickstarter, which we supported :)
#1 The Mandate
The Mandate is a futuristic space sandbox-RPG in which you, as the captain of an intergalactic spaceship, lead a crew through the galaxy in your quest to bring order to the galactic empire!
That was a very nice update. I really like the idea that you consider to keep the 'cartoonish' look in rendering, instead of superrealistic one. That "Semi-realistic" style sounds just right.
I think you guys have a good sense of style and design, based on what I've seen and heard so far. Keep it that way.
Thanks for the update, I'm looking forward to the next one!
About animations, are you finding the same difficulties Satellite Reign devs had? (I'm referring to their Dev Diary ...I think was #2). I'm wondering how realistic would be to start a collaboration since you are doing similar things and funds are limited so using them efficiently without reinventing the wheel is important. Well, if it make sense, I have no idea how much work and time is spent on the animations. I wouldn't be concerned about competition, both projects derive from old masterpieces and gamers are definitely going to buy both! ;)
Thanks for the update, I'm looking forward to the next one!
About animations, are you finding the same difficulties Satellite Reign devs had? (I'm referring to their Dev Diary ...I think was #2). I'm wondering how realistic would be to start a collaboration since you are doing similar things and funds are limited so using them efficiently without reinventing the wheel is important. Well, if it make sense, I have no idea how much work and time is spent on the animations. I wouldn't be concerned about competition, both projects derive from old masterpieces and gamers are definitely going to buy both! ;)
Glad you liked it :D
We have seen that Dev Diary and are thinking about giving the system they use a go...but you're right a collaboration could be an option, but ofc we'd need to talk to them first.
- I like the two on the right from the "latest lingup" picture, but I don't like the two on the left at all.
- Seeing the military face mask in tropical setting seems kind of weird. What weather will be there? Earlier concept art had some snow in the mountain region?
- The gear seems a bit modern on the troops in the concept art or at least it feels so. I know it is early concept, but maybe have some pictures reminding of the year setting (JA2 and online are way too modern)
Gulf War (1990-1991)
Falklands War (1982)
- I hope you are aiming for graphics that age well (I know it is hard to achieve), but I feel it is something to keep in mind. Good examples are Fallout 1 and 2 and also JA2, they still look good and not horrible opposed to some other games from that time. From the video I see you are taking this approach (not so much detail on the face and the camera distance) and that is good.
Overall great to see that you are thinking and experimenting on the matter. Keep up the good work.
If i understand well, this dev diary shows how Jesper worked on the character body style and detail. Tell me if i'm wrong somewhere, i'm trying to understand the whole process. A couple of questions come to my mind :
- How many body types will be in game, in the end ? For example, in JA2 there were male, female, and muscular (plus child and crepitus if they count in), as far as i know. Do you plan on doing it the same way ? You are talking about "bodytype", and i want to make sure we are talking about the same thing. Some of the artworks (cartoonish approach) show 3 different bodytypes, for example (skinny, normal, big). Is it just for style testing, or illustrative of different body shapes ?
- How will characters differenciate one from eachother ? On that matter, Jesper says the face detail will not be rendered because of camera distance. So, there will be some common bodytypes for everyone and each merc has a different skin texture, maybe 3D hairstyle and such ? On top of that, the equipment shows on the body (head included), in 3D, like some of the equiped bodies of the "grunt army" ?
EDIT: Deleted the double and triple posts, sorry for that, was it due to F5 refresh ?
By the way, i loved the first approach "realistic", but i understand jesper's point of view. He's trying hard to keep JA's style with modern tech rendering and other contraints. I respect that and give him special kudos for all the great work. It's hard to find the right style between realistic/impressionistic/cartoonish, but i trust him in finding it there. While i love his realistic sketches, i understand we have to avoid the "uncanny valley". As always, extra credits deals with this concept far better than me here : http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-uncanny-valley
Liking the look of it, JA2 had a distinctive cartoonish style that i liked, but the gamplay was realistic and fun.
Not worried about the merc faces not being detailed, aslong as the portrait's a good that's all that matters, i do hope though when you put armour, clothing or weapons on your characters in the inventory they show ingame, thats one thing that lacked in JA2.
First off it's great too so many are tuning into our little dev diary, happy to see we aren't boring anyone to death - i might add that the couch is VERY comfortable.
So let me introduce myself, i'm Jesper, also known mostly by my nickname Scribblehead. I'm kinda the resident concept-slash-art-director-in-some-cases-also-3d--&-texture-slash-ui-artist on jagged alliance.
@Grim
- Basically from when we started the diorama untill now (roughly) there's been alot of talk, back and forth about body types. One thing that we didn't like (looking back at...back in action - pun intended) is that all the characters very much felt the same. One of the sketches we did was to see how much we could push a basic (medium) character into the "light" and "heavy" body types. This was basically done to illustrate how those body types could look like if we pushed for stylized characters instead of realistic ones.
For now all you see is a lot of style testing - more will follow because the notion of having different body types might not necessarily fit well with realistic character proportions. Not to mention that it means creating 3x times the assets, so it has to mean more 'bang for the buck' before we commit to a decision about the body types.
- About character differentiation thats a tough question because its not something we've decided on yet either, its still being discussed. One of the ways we can differentiate characters would be through the means you mention, hairstyles and character specific equipment.
So to close off, we know that characters is kind of a HUGE DEAL :), and i hope that just showing the sheer amount of prototyping we've done so far shows that we're serious about getting them feeling and looking just right.
I have to give a special shout out to Christian, he's on pins and needles with the character models, hopefully we can drag him in front of a camera soon so he can tell how much work went into all of the iterations :)
Love the style that was chosen. Spot on with JA2, Realistic in design but with that softer cell shaded look. Like Roman and Jesper talk about overloading someones senses with the uber realistic, this was exactly the direction I hoped you would go. Thank you. ^^
Also, good to see you're experimenting with the body type to see what looks better in the engine.
About body types, i would love to see as many as possible (small frame, medium, tall, muscular, fat, childrem, old, female, etc), however i truly understand the limits.
Maybe, if you can rather easily implement stuff in overlay of the body (like the kevlar vest, holster, etc) it will be easier to add those that way (a large belly for a fat merc, big muscles for a strong one ...), like you would disguise him with a costume. I'm just throwing an idea here, of course it won't be perfect, the animations may look not so realistic for example.
However, the strick minimum might be 2 body types, one for each gender, i guess (?)
Hehe, sooo many opinions, but good to hear they go both ways....I also favor gamplay for the most part, but that doesn't mean you can't make it look good if possible :)
- The gear seems a bit modern on the troops in the concept art or at least it feels so. I know it is early concept, but maybe have some pictures reminding of the year setting (JA2 and online are way too modern)
Gulf War (1990-1991)
Falklands War (1982)
- I hope you are aiming for graphics that age well (I know it is hard to achieve), but I feel it is something to keep in mind. Good examples are Fallout 1 and 2 and also JA2, they still look good and not horrible opposed to some other games from that time. From the video I see you are taking this approach (not so much detail on the face and the camera distance) and that is good.
Overall great to see that you are thinking and experimenting on the matter. Keep up the good work.
Agree with this observation here. Padded webbings seems very avant garde for 1980s and only the top militaries (e.g. US or British) would have used them. Also they were suited to cold climates and were unwearable in tropical climates. Most banana republic militaries would literally have just a canvas belt webbing with holes to stick useful pouches onto and it would be very bare bones.
First I want to congratulate you on having enough sense to actually experiment with stuff like this.
I must say that as for now I really like the impressionistic character design. It stays outside of the uncanny valley while still looking pretty realistic. It has the right amount of cheese JA2 had. The cartoon art style is too close to Team Fortress 2 for my liking.
The one thing however are the environments of the impressionistic style you showed us as a preview. That is a bit too much, they are too simplified, too empty. I would advise you to go with more realistic environments, but you should keep it crisp and clean while allowing maps to have lots of small details. Maybe add some cell shading to make it a bit more stylized. The problem with realistic environments is that you often miss stuff on it, that is why characters should be a bit overdone.
Rule of the thumb: if you try to make something look ultra realistic in few years people will laugh at it, while stylized art style will still look decent. Think about the SNES games and similar, the sprite artwork in many games aged surprisingly well (hint: JA2).
If possible, could we get a small preview of a same character in a bit of same environment done in the 3 art styles you are considering? This way it will be easier to see the differences.
First I want to congratulate you on having enough sense to actually experiment with stuff like this.
I must say that as for now I really like the impressionistic character design. It stays outside of the uncanny valley while still looking pretty realistic. It has the right amount of cheese JA2 had. The cartoon art style is too close to Team Fortress 2 for my liking.
The one thing however are the environments of the impressionistic style you showed us as a preview. That is a bit too much, they are too simplified, too empty. I would advise you to go with more realistic environments, but you should keep it crisp and clean while allowing maps to have lots of small details. Maybe add some cell shading to make it a bit more stylized. The problem with realistic environments is that you often miss stuff on it, that is why characters should be a bit overdone.
Rule of the thumb: if you try to make something look ultra realistic in few years people will laugh at it, while stylized art style will still look decent. Think about the SNES games and similar, the sprite artwork in many games aged surprisingly well (hint: JA2).
If possible, could we get a small preview of a same character in a bit of same environment done in the 3 art styles you are considering? This way it will be easier to see the differences.
Thanks and welcome to the forum :)
I'm glad you like what you see for the most part. The environment is still work in progress, meaning most of the models are place holders at this point.
So for us to make a small preview would probably take a while as we'd need to make 3 different types of environments + models. We will continously update on the matter when we have something more concrete though.
The environment is still work in progress, meaning most of the models are place holders at this point.
I understand, but I looking at the environment from other games you have shown as inspiration I must say I really disliked the lack of detail on the impressionist style. To be honest the scene design that were shown by your concept art looks much better, the small details like tire makers on muddy road etc. are the details that make the scene go alive.
Nobody said you cant mesh styles together (in a reasonable manner of course). In one of your inspiration pics you are showing Dishonored screen as an example of realistic artwork, but if you take a look at character designs found in that game youll notice that they are more like the impressionist style you have showed us. Of course Im merely labeling things according to what you have show us as I have little knowledge on art styles.
Oh and by preview I only meant an concept art as shown above, just a same small scene drawn in different styles. That's nothing pressing though.
BTW: While not strictly art design matter: Im currently playing my 1.13 on Wildfire maps. I suggest you to take a very good look at them as the level design of WF maps is simply superb. While its still JA2, the clutter, the small details makes JA2 look much better, less sterile. The chosen art style should be able to support this kind level of detail.
I'm wondering about approximation (zoom) of camera to mercenaries on this video, probably this is feature of the map editor, but do you have plans to add so great close-up in the game also? To be clear, I'm not against it, I would be very happy to see such zoom in the game.
I think that we've been talking about a max zoom level and then adding the option to zoom out for overview. It makes little sense making a stylized/lower detailed game and then allowing people to zoom in completely. Like you see in the video, if you zoom in on the JA2 the detail level is very low.
I don't know what the designers have planned, but I know that they're still playing around with the camera distance and I think anything with zoom levels can first be determined once the first playable is ready.
I think that max zoom should be something around JA2 native resolution. You could still leave an option to change camera settings if some would wish closer zoom and farther zoom out.
Since we are talking about camera: will isometric view be available as an option or only orthographic?
